Workforce veteran Bob Knight joins Kim Meadows to reflect on decades of workforce evolution. They discuss innovation, sector strategies, AI, funding, and advice for the next generation of workforce leaders.
Podcast Transcript
ALEXIS FRANKS: Good morning, good afternoon and good evening, all you workforce warriors across the country. My name is Alexis Franks, and I am your Director of Membership for the National Association of Workforce Development Professionals. In today’s episode, we will continue to honor industry trailblazers and the programs and initiatives that have shaped today’s workforce and continue to inspire future generations of workforce leaders. We have another riveting conversation about stories of impact, resilience, and innovation from an industry leader and longtime friend of NAWDP. Today, we are excited to have with us, Bob Knight, Director of Government Relations at Equus Workforce Solutions. Also today, we have a special host! Leading today’s conversation, we have Kim Meadows, the Director of Training for NAWDP. Many of you may be familiar with the work Kim has done to provide training and resources to support workforce professionals of all occupations and industries. Kim and Bob: Welcome to you both.
KIM MEADOWS: Thank you, Alexis, for inviting me on the mic today to be your special host. And thank you Bob for joining us. So I am really looking forward to this conversation. Um, Bob, you may not know: So, I’ve been in workforce development for about 20 years, and when I started in workforce development, every time I would have the opportunity to go to a conference, anytime I saw your name on the agenda, I made sure that I attended your workshop. So even if you did two or three workshops at a conference, I was at all of the Bob Knight workshops. And I was also always amazed, and even still to this day, with not only your wealth of knowledge, but then you know also your willingness to share your expertise and to share with all of us. So I’ve learned so much from you over the years, so I am excited today to hear more about your career journey. So, let’s just dive in. Let’s start from the very beginning, Bob. So, can you tell me what inspired you to get into workforce development, or if that wasn’t your chosen career, if you fell into workforce development, what inspired you to stay in workforce.
BOB KNIGHT: Well, I suppose it’s fair to say, and thank you, Kim for all the kind things you had to say. I think it’s fair to say that almost all of us “fell in” at least in the sense that when we were in high school or even grade school, we wanted to be firemen, nurses, doctors, astronauts, all kinds of things, not workforce, but in my case, since I’ve been around a tad longer than most of our listeners, maybe all of our listeners, I went to the seminary after high school. It was Maryknoll seminary outside of Chicago, and Maryknoll was the Foreign Mission Society for the Catholic Church in the United States. Now remember, this is the 60s, and this was the year of Job Corps, of Peace Corps as well and was also, as an aside, when Job Corps was founded, and I spent three years in the seminary. But what I’d mentioned in terms of career development is, I had the opportunity to tutor in families in public housing on the west side of Chicago. And I also had a chance to do voter registration work in the poorest parts of the city of Chicago, and I went to orphanages in Chicago. And I, not sure, as a young man, I even knew there were still orphanages, but there were in the 1960s in Chicago, for sure. And I then ended up in graduate school at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and I asked my advisor one day, in the 70s, the economy was terrible, “where can I find a decent job?” And he said, “Well, have you looked into these things that President Nixon has just signed, called manpower?” And he said, I had a student was in it. To make a long story short, I ended up getting an internship as they were setting up the manpower office for the county of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and that internship, which, by the way, I strongly believe is a key program that we need to promote whenever possible, not just because it worked for me, but I think it works for thousands of young people as they look for a career, and I ended up in in the manpower office, putting the CETA Comprehensive Employment and Training Act program together. And from there, I guess the rest of it was history. I loved what I did.
KIM MEADOWS: Wow. So everyone has their own story of how they got into workforce development. So that’s a very good starting point, just to see how you started, how you got into workforce development. And so now here we are, 2025 and you said, I think, and you started in the 1960s so I can only imagine how much Workforce Development has changed in that time. I know you’ve seen just a wide variety of just different things in workforce development. So, can you talk to us a little bit about what Workforce Development looked like when you started, or maybe what were some of the challenges that were happening at that time?
BOB KNIGHT: Yeah, just to clarify, while I was in school in the 60s, I didn’t start in workforce till the 70s, which is fine, which is fine at the beginning, and I’ll go to the good news and the bad news sort of thing, because I’ll go to the very end of the 70s, as I was preparing to leave to go to work in Washington. President Carter, at that point, there was $10 billion in the workforce system, most of it seven to even 8 billion was for public service employment, for job creation. So I think there were two big differences. One is back in the 70s, when we started all this, we had a lot of opportunities to create jobs. So you could, sometimes, instead of trying to just put people into training or education, you could move them into a job and try to move them forward that way if they had the skills already to do it. And that was a huge program. When you think about it, for $10 billion in the late 70s, would be $40 billion today, and the WIOA program is 4 billion, so it was a huge program. So that was one place where it started. The other one was, well, maybe I’ll mention two others. One was community-based organizations, local ones. We didn’t have the network of national providers such as Equus, but both for profit and nonprofit, Goodwill being a large one on the nonprofit side, Eckerd has been another newer nonprofit, and we didn’t have all of that. Almost all of the programs were very local, and even the ones that were quote, unquote national, such as, oh, I see of America back then, opportunities, industrialization center were really run pretty much as independent, entrepreneurial structures. And so I think we had a long learning process to move those programs. The big thing to remember is we were building the current system from scratch back then. It wasn’t like we inherited a whole program. It was like we had to establish this local program. So those were two, and then the third one, there was a much stronger, I think, and this is maybe you can take this as you wish. There was a much stronger emphasis, or sense of intervention on behalf of people who had been left behind in our society. And remember, it was also the civil rights era, the women’s rights era, the anti-war era, all those things out of the 60s impelled the kind of programs that we got in the 70s. And that’s all still a little bit there, but also not a little bit gone, for both good and not so good reasons.
KIM MEADOWS: So Bob, I heard, and I want you to clarify, give me more details on what your connection is to the very first Forum?
BOB KNIGHT: I got hired, and there was NAPIC I didn’t, I wasn’t really the founder of NAPIC, but when I got hired, they said to me, we’re having a meeting two months, and here’s what you have to do. So I developed that meeting, but out of the experience of that meeting where we invited all the pick directors in the country, and this was right after JTPA had passed out of that, we started talking, and we came up with the forum, which didn’t start probably until somewhere in the mid 80s. I don’t remember exactly which year, but we came up with the term after that. I mean, the first one was called the NAPIC business meeting, or some exciting name like that. But we then came up with NAPIC chairs forum and had special things for it. Yeah, that was it sort of lost that. It still has a little bit of that, but it got much bigger. And that always changes an organization of meeting it. But we went from having a few 100 to over 1000 people, and yeah, at one point, I think we reached 1600.
KIM MEADOWS: So you have mentioned just some very pivotal moments just in US history that you’ve been a part of and been in the workforce development system through those times, those periods of times. Can you talk to us a little bit about maybe what’s-what was one of your pivotal moments that shaped your approach to workforce development? Was there one moment in particular, or one period of time that shaped how you viewed workforce development?
BOB KNIGHT: Well, it’s probably honest to say that I am going to go to one and answer your question that probably at various points in our in the history that I’ve worked through, I’ve probably had pivotal moments that moved me, that changed me, so that I didn’t always feel the same way. But the big one that I always think about, I was working in Milwaukee, late 70s, and we put we got a federal grant called the STIP program, skill training improvement program, and we put together a board of business leaders, and they organized a program at the Milwaukee School of Engineering and at the community college that was working with ex-offenders and other people who had been long out of the workforce to move into the metals industries and welding and machining and other kinds of jobs that were popular at that time, and they committed both to designing programs that would meet the needs of their workforces, because they were all HR or CEOs of their companies around Milwaukee, and they also committed to hiring everybody. So a Milwaukee Journal reporter called me up one day and said, “Well, how do I know that these business people who are getting this training sort of free, are going to live up to their promise?” I said, “Well, why don’t you go to the meeting and look at their records and see what happens?” So he goes to the meeting, and he calls me up, and he said they went around the table, and every graduate got a job. And he said, in any group of graduates, there’s somebody who’s, you know, barely made it. They came every day, so you’re going to push him over the line, and he said, but even that person, who they all agreed on, somebody agreed to hire him. So, they all got hired. And when you look at retention, they were very high on the retention list too. So that was one lesson, was, let’s give business more of a role, which led very soon thereafter the private industry councils, which were Title Seven of the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act of 1978 I believe it was. But the other thing is sector strategies. We didn’t call it that then, but as we think forward, they were all people in the same kind of manufacturing businesses. And I think today we understand whether it’s healthcare or retail or manufacturing or building around sector strategies where we get the industries involved is a very high return way to get organized. So both of those have had long legs since those days, and I was happy to get into that. And I guess then and they were influential, because I then became an advocate for private industry councils, which became workforce development boards, and still am to this day, a believer in that approach.
KIM MEADOWS: Yes, and we definitely see that in workforce development now. So you know that working with businesses and sector strategy so that work has definitely continued throughout the years, and as we’re talking about you starting off in workforce development. It’s just great to hear how you were part of that in the beginning. So you know, we talked through your career journey, Bob, and so here we are now 2025 you are still going strong in workforce development. I still see you at all conferences. I still go to all your workshops, but tell us a little bit about what you are up to now. What are you doing now? How are you in the workforce development space?
BOB KNIGHT: Well, I think the focus right now has to be on longer term stability in the funding of the programs, which probably suggests two things. One is, hopefully this is a very difficult time in the Congress to balance the budget and deal a number of other issues, but nonetheless, we need a firmer view of stability from the Congress and funding. That’s one. And two is, I think, as a system, we have to become far more innovative and aggressive in seeking out other places to get funding support, whether it’s local and state money, whether it’s foundation money, whether it’s employers buying in, but I think we have to have a broader sense of how we’re going to pay for the huge needs that are coming down the road. And so that’s number one. Number two, we do get WIOA reauthorized , whether it’s this year, as it currently is, which had a lot of opposition and a lot of support. You know, it sort of, I guess it’s just like our Congress, right? It was like in the workforce community, half were for it and half were at least skeptical. Let’s say they weren’t necessarily against it, but they were skeptical, mostly on the training expenditure side. So there’s that, and we’ll see how that goes. But there’s also TANF is in sore need of reauthorization, and I’ve seen some indication of people that would like to see some reforms that also would apply to the Wagner Peyser and other kinds of labor exchange. And then the last thing that I like to think about. Not, not the last thing, I suppose that’s not true, but one of the things I like to think about that’s a little more, not an expert, but I need to watch it, is artificial intelligence. And I really believe we’re gonna see, you know the saying is that workers are not going to be replaced by AI, but workers are in danger of being replaced by workers who know how to use AI. And of course, that means the onus is on us, including NAWDP, to try to make sure there’s a solid base of training today. You know, right away in using artificial intelligence, because there is work going on around the world. Actually, it’s not in the just in the US, and I think we can learn from other countries what they’re doing, but certainly in issues such as case notes and record keeping and all these things that take up 30% or better, I think, of a case manager’s time, much of that could be done with a fraction of the effort on the part of the staff, leaving them with a lot more time to really get focused in on what their customer is seeking and what they want and what they need. And so I think that’s an exciting opportunity, but I realize for those that don’t have those skills, it’s a scary time because it threatens their stability. So stable funding, expanded funding, training that begins to bring AI into our daily work lives. I think those are all three things that I’ve been thinking about.
KIM MEADOWS: Awesome. Well, I’m glad you said that about all three of those training opportunities, specifically about AI, because last year NAWDP, we did a survey of our not up membership on what their top learning goal was for the year, and artificial intelligence was the number one training topic that people wanted more training on. So we were able to do, last year, a summer learning series that focused on that. And then in addition to that, at our conferences, we have learning tracks that specifically focus on artificial intelligence. So thank you for validating that for me, that AI is definitely one of those topics that you see as critical. So Bob, my final question for you, and then I’m going to open it up and just let you go forward if you have anything else to share with us while we have you here on the mic. But my final question for you. We have a lot of people that come in and out of workforce development, and we have a lot of new industry professionals every year. Speaking from your experience, can you tell us or give us some advice, or give them some advice? For somebody who is new, just starting in this field, what would be your advice?
BOB KNIGHT: Oh, that’s a good question, because we absorb information in different ways, and different jobs have different needs and expectations. But I think the maybe the first place I’d start for anybody is see the world as much bigger than just WIOA if that’s what you’re working in, or TANF, if that’s what you’re working in, because those are small pieces of what the workforce world is about. And there’s HR in the private sector. There’s all kinds of government jobs that have to do with workforce. There are still agencies that use the term “manpower” that I run into once in a while, probably in the military, as much as anywhere. But as you start to see that broader, it’s an issue of seeing how you can your skills give you moral attitude and lead if you really develop your core skills to work with people and work with career development and training and placement and retention. So that would be my recommendation, is to see it broader and then to begin to understand your skills in that broader context, which gives you more freedom to say, hey, if they cut the money in this program, I’ve got skills and experiences that I can take and put on my resume and move somewhere else in the workforce world, and then maybe come back into this world one day too. So, I think that’s that would be a good place to start.
KIM MEADOWS: Awesome. All right, Bob, so I’m going to, see, I’m going to open it up to you. If there any closing remarks, or anything closing that you have for our listeners today that you would like to share that I haven’t asked you yet?
BOB KNIGHT: Oh, I think this we for a variety of very difficult or complex, let’s say complex reasons. We have a growing schism between people who make a little bit of money and people who make comfortable or better living, and that in inequity is driven by a variety of both social structural economic factors, but I think it’s upon us in the workforce world to begin to identify places where we can break that down and help people get ahead, and not by making some people poorer, but by making other people richer. And for example, I think we should probably reconsider the Career Center structure of having all these people in one place. I’d start to put people into low income communities and put them in there with economic development, business development, entrepreneurs, find community leaders that want to assist in this. I just think our future in workforce, if I can think out five or six years, is far more to be working in changing neighborhoods to make those neighborhoods more prosperous, rather than what we probably end up doing now, which is giving some people enough money to leave those neighborhoods, and that’s not a bad thing, necessarily, but I would like to see us begin to see which maybe harkens me back to the old early days of CETA, which is where we had a broad social agenda, not just an economic agenda. So it may be pie in the sky, but if I had room to do it, I’d do it. So I guess what I’d say is on a maybe more practical level, because there are a couple of things in the Oswald bill that I like which allow for some experimentation. And one of the things that I have pointed out to people is we ended up with workforce development boards, because there was an experimental title in CETA called Title Seven that built private industry councils and gave every area Private Industry Council. We learned good things and bad things not to do and things to do. And over a period of years, starting with JTPA, we ended up with PICS, which then became workforce investment boards, which became workforce development boards, and I think they got in many respects better in each stage. The same thing was true with Career Centers. Under President Clinton, we gave every state money to experiment with one stops, as we call them, and we got a lot of different models, and out of that came WIOA and the mandate that everybody have a career center or more or one or more career centers, and that they bring all the partners together. So we’re in another period where the world’s changing. It would be nice in in it through Labor Department leadership or governor’s leadership in some states, to begin look at some broader efforts to experiment with new approaches, such as putting career center services into low income neighborhoods. But there’s probably 1000 other great ideas out there, and the question is, could we get enough flexibility in the current system, which, now that it’s what, more than 50 years old, gets a little creaky or a little, I mean, book of regulations gets longer and longer as the years go by. And there’s some room here to say experimentation leads to some degree of innovation. We’ve seen it in our own history, and I think it’s time to try to see some of that in the workforce world going forward.
KIM MEADOWS: I love it, and so as Alexis would say, I’m taking her line here. She would say, this is a mic drop moment. But I love experimentation leads to innovation. And that really goes back to what we do in workforce development, is we really want to think outside of the box, and how can we innovate the Workforce Development System? Bob, it was an absolute pleasure to talk with you today. We look forward to you continuing to be a part of not only workforce development, but a part of NAWDP. I look forward to seeing you all around workforce as I have so far in the past, and at this time, I will turn it back over to Alexis.
ALEXIS FRANKS: Thank you so much, Bob. Kim, we enjoyed your conversation today, and hopefully we can continue these, this effort, your engagement. We appreciate you so much, Bob, for the work that you do, and thank you for having us today.
BOB KNIGHT: Thank you. My pleasure.
